Second, if you’re man enough to call somebody names, be man enough to use your own. Nobody likes a keyboard warrior who hides behind the anonymity of the Internet.

Third, have you even read the two articles?

“If pulling out an “unfair fight” is all you’ve got then I’ll say TMA is a waste of time because most criminals carry guns! ”
Read the articles.

“because NOTHING works ALL the time. ”
Never disputed that and besides the point.

” By the way, the best way to learn how not to go to the ground, is to learn how to take it to the ground!”
Not only no but hell no. The best way to learn how not to go to the ground is to practice defense against attempts to take you there. MMA doesn’t have a monopoly on takedown techniques or defenses against them.

“The truth is MMA *is* traditional martial arts. Several of them, and all of them. ”
Not even close. MMA is slowly becoming a TMA in and of it’s own right but it has tossed out the baby with the bathwater. Taking techniques form different styles, mixing them up and saying they’re a TMA is completely off the mark. 20 years of study in a TMA is nothing. You’ve only barely scratched the surface then. So how could you go around cherry picking techniques, taking them out of their context and then believe they’ll work as advertised? Naive at best.

” So you guys carry on training to win 32% of fights, while the rest of us train to win the other 68%!”
Statistics are always fun and you can use them to further your agenda. That still doesn’t mean your statistic has any relevance to the discussion at hand. Here’s the part you’re missing: Standard arresting/handcuffing procedure for LEOs is to put a resisting suspect on the ground. Sure, there are other ways to cuff a perp but in the vast majority of cases, it’s easier to do so from the ground. Ask any LEO if he’d rather arrest a resisting suspect on his feet or first pin him down. Given that, it’s easy to have a large discrepancy in the numbers.
Also, I’d love to see the raw data of the study to find out another missing bit of info: LEOs most often work in pairs. In how many of all the cases in this study did the arresting officer take it to the ground with a partner to help him there?
I can statistically prove that 100% of all people who end up drowning in the sea end up wet. And I can erroneously conclude from there that all you need to survive from drowning is train by standing under the shower because you also get wet that way. Statistics don’t prove anything…

” The problem you TMA types seem to have is thinking that an MMA guy ONLY goes to the ground. That is your fatal flaw! ”
Us “TMA types” don’t think that at all. That’s your assumption and you know what they say about those…

“Just saying “being on the ground is bad, so I won’t ever do it” is pure insanity. Sooner or later you will end up there, and if you are not trained and your opponent is, then you will lose… badly. ”
The insanity is not realizing that MMA is not the only way to handle a fight that goes to the ground. MMA and TMA have different goals and methods. Apples and oranges.

As a final point: in every fight I was in, I never encountered a situation in which going to the ground was a better solution than staying on my feet. In every fight where it went to the ground, I never saw a situation in which getting up wasn’t the best solution. Every single bouncer, LEO or soldier I talked to, people from all over the world who put their lives at stake on a daily basis, has agreed with that.

A word of caution: This is my place, my rules. Be polite, state your case with arguments and do so without making assumptions or name calling. Do that and you’re more than welcome to join the discussions here. Keep up this line of response and you’ll get banned.

Oh what is that you say? Maybe not all fights are against an opponent armed with a gun? Well not all fights are against multiple opponents, and if you are going to refuse to learn a set of techniques simply because SOMETIMES they don’t work, then throw away everything in YOUR favoured style too, because NOTHING works ALL the time.

By the way, the best way to learn how not to go to the ground, is to learn how to take it to the ground!

The truth is MMA *is* traditional martial arts. Several of them, and all of them. Anyone who says sticking to ONE MA is smarter than learning as many MA’s as possible, including ground fighting, is an idiot because there will always be someone better than you at it, and at that point you better have a backup, or you will be in deep shit.

PS that myth, is NOT a myth:

“6. The report concluded: “Nearly two thirds of the 1988 altercations (62%) ended with the officer and subject on the ground with the officer applying a joint lock and handcuffing the subject.” Given this, it is better put that the LAPD data says when officers physically fought with suspects (versus simply encountering minor resistance or non-compliance which required a minor use of force, but did not escalate into an altercation), 95% of the time those fights took one of five patterns, and 62% of those five types of altercations ended up with the officer and subject on the ground with the officer locking and handcuffing the suspect.”

http://ejmas.com/jnc/2007jnc/jncart_Leblanc_0701.html

The 95% number is a misquote, the actual statistic is 62% of 95%, or just over 68% of the altercations studied ended up with both the officer and the suspect on the ground grappling.

So you guys carry on training to win 32% of fights, while the rest of us train to win the other 68%!

The problem you TMA types seem to have is thinking that an MMA guy ONLY goes to the ground. That is your fatal flaw! A well trained MMA fighter will fight on his feet, on the ground, even hanging from the ceiling if he has to – the point is to be highly skilled EVERYWHERE. Just saying “being on the ground is bad, so I won’t ever do it” is pure insanity. Sooner or later you will end up there, and if you are not trained and your opponent is, then you will lose… badly.

Lack of Knowledge.

Even Martial Artists don’t seem to understand what is Sport, or what is Real Combat. How are we to expect the unknowing public to understand any of this, when we who are in it can’t agree on this? Martial Arts are good, but all things are not the same.
Danny

Thanks for the feedback and your kind words. It’s great to hear from your perspective as bot ha martial artist but more importantly, a life spent in law enforcement.

That myth of all those fights going to the ground is probably going to be the hardest thing to kill. Because people see it in MMA matches so it must be real in the street too?! Then I shake my head, try to explain and get a typical response like “Brock Lesnar would kick your tai chi master’s ass in the street!!!!” Which is when I give up and walk away.

I was fortunate that in the Chinese arts I started in, there is virtually no ground fighting. It was instilled in me that you never wanted to go to the floor. If you did, your only goals was to get back up. to this day, that’s my focus. Arts focused on ground work are great, I love what they do. But on the street, I’d rather do something else. Like running fiercely.

As a lifelong martial artist who has worked as a Patrol Deputy, Detective, Defensive Tactics Instructor and ultimately as Special Agent in the US Secret Service I can tell you that your comments are right on. I have been teaching a segment called “MMA will get you killed against the blade.” We regularly confirm the statement that “Two beats one on the ground.”

You do not want to go to the ground! I tire of the number of mythological statistics that 90% of all fights go to the ground. My experience shows that sloppy drunks fighting go to the ground. People who are knocked unconscious go to the ground. Individuals that fall prey to multiple attackers such as high/low attack scenarios go to the ground. Suspects that are arrested using control/defensive tactics go to the ground to be cuffed. At know time does a police officer who is serious about his craft or a civilian responding to a self-defense situation want to go to the ground “with the suspect.”

Good law enforcement officers and martial artist alike will train in ground defense skills, but not with the goal of a submission. The goal is to survive the attack using any soft targets that are available, that is all those that are against the sport martial art rules, and recover to a superior position on his/her feet. This allows the trained officer to be aware and respond to secondary risk and the citizen the best opportunity to escape the conflict. This type of situational training is imperative.

I only recently started reading your blog. You are spot on with your comments. I was fortunate enough to have been a part of a very physical traditional school where protective equipment was almost non-existent. That together with wrestling gave me a good foundation that has continued to develop with my lifelong training that benefits from the real world views I along with other professionals have been privileged to have along with knowledge shared by many talented professionals like yourself.

Keep it up.