MMA against multiple opponents, Part Three

In a previous post, I wrote about MMA against multiple opponents, also in the second part. Before you post comments, please read those two posts and especially this one here.

I hadn’t really planned on taking up the subject again though. That is, until I came across this video. It illustrates perfectly what I wrote, take a look.

Now we can go on and on about:

  • How this guy obviously wasn’t an MMA fighter and should have done technique X,Y or Z.
  • You, your teacher, GSP, Randy Couture, or whoever you want to bring in as an example, would have destroyed both opponents with Mixed Martial Arts techniques.
  • I suck because I bring this up again and it takes you out of your comfort zone where you can feel MMA is the ULTIMATE-MEGA–FIGHTING-SYSTEM of not only the world but also the entire universe! Roar!!!!!

But these are pretty lame arguments and we all know it. :-)

The facts are clear and cannot be refudiated (Thank you Sarah Palin!) ;-):

  • There’s an argument between two men, a woman tries to negotiate a peace.
  • They start fighting and quickly close in a clinch.
  • The fight remains standing until one fighter trips the other by tripping him over a railing.
  • A wrestling match ensues, mostly on the ground. Neither man is really winning.
  • A third party shows up and starts kicking the crap out of one opponent. This causes him to freeze and take a lot of damage.
  • We don’t know how the fight ends but it’s not looking well…

Looking for self defense against multiple opponents? Try this video here.

Some thoughts:

  • Neither men looked like a particularly experienced or trained fighter.
  • The situation could probably have been resolved easily with the GUMP-doctrine: “RUN Forrest! RUUUUUN!”
  • Once the third man came up, the fight is a one-way street. The lonesome defender freezes up and takes the beating. I hope he made it out of there alright because these kind of beatings can do permanent or terminal damage.
  • He’s exceedingly lucky the third guy didn’t pull a knife or look for an environmental weapon.
  • Speaking of environment, tripping over the railing pretty much turned it into a ground fight (they only got up once afterwards, and not for long). There is nothing to trip over in the Octagon but there’s plenty in the real world. As you can see, it makes a difference…

Like I said again and again: MMA is not useless for self-defense, nor is it useless against multiple attackers.

But, and it’s a big but, (Ooooh, I crack myself up!) there are huge differences between the Octagon and the street.  And as Randy said, the differences are just as important as the similarities. You disregard these differences at your own risk…

If you’d like to read some of my thoughts of how to use MMA techniques for self defense, try this series called From the Octagon to the Street.

As always, that’s just my take on things. If you disagree, no worries. If you like it and can use it in your training, then that’s great. In the end, you make your own choices about how you train and have to live with the results. My point is, choose wisely after considering the pro’s and con’s. Instead of choosing because it feels more comfortable not to consider issues you don’t like to hear about. Or because somebody else said so.

UPDATE: The video was unavailable for a while because Youtube decided it violated their terms of service. Which is pretty funny because I took it from another youtube account and copied it on mine.  So now I’m linking to the same video, also on Youtube…

UPDATE 2: Here’s part Four

.

Comments

  1. ouch!
    Thats some beating he gets when the 3rd guy turns up…

    Harsh.

  2. ouch!
    Thats some beating he gets when the 3rd guy turns up…

    Harsh.

  3. You’ll want to be careful with posting these videos, Wim. Google penalizes people for embedding them on their blogs, depending on whether or not they like your commentary. I’m dead serious here.

  4. You’ll want to be careful with posting these videos, Wim. Google penalizes people for embedding them on their blogs, depending on whether or not they like your commentary. I’m dead serious here.

  5. I disagree with your analogy of this video. I believe it illustrates the necessity of grappling training for real life.

    Neither of these combatants were trained in anything. This is painfully obvious, and extremely relevant. But lets pretend for a second that the guy in the white jacket was in two following scenarios. Both will be trained in either striking or grappling only. Keep in mind most BJJ guys and all MMA fighters cross train to an equal amount in both standup and grappling styles these days.

    Scenario 1: Guy in the black jacket(BJ) is untrained but the gentleman in the white jacket(WJ) is trained in only a striking art(Karate, Boxing, Wing Chun, etc…). The fight starts and WJ starts by beating on BJ in pristine striking fashion, but is unable to avoid the clinch due to the tight space. WJ is also unable to put BJ down with strikes. Now they’re in a clinching match and they go over the railing, get back up and continue wrestling. BJ takes down WJ just like in the video because WJ being primarily a striker doesn’t consistently train clinching and takedown defense. Now they are both on the ground as shown in the video, and evenly matched since neither actively trains ground fighting significantly. BJ is still able to restrain WJ, and BJ’s friend is still able to kick him in the head 15 times. Why? Because even though WJ is an student of striking he was ill prepared to be on the ground. In ignoring this stage of combat, he essentially wrote his own death sentence. Just because he didn’t address ground combat, didn’t mean he would never wind up there.

    Scenario 2: Guy in the black jacket(BJ) is untrained, but this time the gentleman in the white jacket(WJ) is trained in only a grappling art(Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Judo, Wrestling, etc…). Fight starts off as we see in the video as neither has trained striking skills to speak off. They clinch and fall over the railing still, as that would catch even the best strikers or grapplers. However they get back up as in the video and stay in the clinch. Now BJ attempts his weak takedown attempt and WJ, seeing BJ’s friend, is able to keep BJ’s takedown from being successful. Due to the takedown defense he regularly practices in his grappling art.

    For arguments sake though lets say the fight still goes to the ground. Maybe WJ didn’t see BJ’s freind and took him down, maybe he got taken down and decided to stay there. We could even say they didn’t get up after they tripped over the rail, as this is a major danger in any street fight, and can happen to the best fighter on the planet. Now WJ sees BJ’s friend coming, and knows the ground is a terrible place to be when confronted by more than 1 person. Since he trains grappling however he is able to use his superior ground skills to reverse BJ and get back to his feet to escape. Because he knew how to fight on the ground he was able to keep from getting pinned under BJ and escape. Something neither the real WJ nor WJ striker in scenario 1 was unable to do.

    Remember you can ignore something as hard as you want. But that doesn’t mean you won’t come face to face with it one day. If you don’t actively train grappling, you run a risk of being taken to the ground and pinned there. Your striking skills wont help you on the ground if you lack ground experience. Essentially you become just as inexperienced as the guy who took you there, and his friends can still kick the snot out of you. Only now your inexperience makes you helpless to get back to your feet and escape.

    Its like a grappler saying he didn’t need to worry about getting punched because he doesn’t train striking.

    • Anon,

      You’re making things a wee bit too easy by hand picking your scenarios. There are an endless amount of of different scenarios we can extrapolate from this video. You pick two that suit your bias but that doesn’t make them valid in this discussion. Nor does it disqualify all other possibilities, including the ones where an MMA trained fighter gets stomped by the second guy, gets his eyes gouged out, a knife stuck in his kidneys, etc ad nauseam. I know of many real life situations where exactly this happened, and worse.
      These are realities of fighting in a real life conflict, outside of the sports arena. In your words: ignore them if you will but it won’t make them go away. Training for a UFC match doesn’t really prepare you for that, regardless of how hard the training is.

      Also, your assumptions are faulty:
      Just because somebody doesn’t study MMA, doesn’t mean they don’t study ground fighting or grappling. Grappling arts like Western wrestling or Shuai Jiao are thousands of years old. So it’s safe to assume men have fought in the clinch or on the ground for a long, long time. MMA clearly admits to taking from such arts and adapts the techniques for the cage. That’s perfectly fine. But it doesn’t invalidate those arts at all.
      Nor does it mean that practitioners of these (and many,many other) arts don’t train to defend against being taken down or learn how to fight on the ground. Or that their techniques and strategies are somehow inferior to MMA’s.

      MMA is first and foremost a sport. However rough a sport it may be. That means that many things that are crucial on the street are of no consequence in the octagon. As a result, they aren’t trained. Again, differences and similarities… That said, an MMA trained athlete who learns all the UFC prohibited techniques and has a street-savvy mind set will be hell on wheels to fight. But he would not be welcome in the UFC anymore. And he’d also look a lot more like what many non-MMA arts are doing.

      Just two more things:
      http://www.military.com/news/article/army-news/the-top-ten-basic-training-changes.html?ESRC=army-a.nl
      Please read #3. The Army is tossing out the Gracie JJ curriculum. This should give you pause…
      – Please talk to big city cops, soldiers on active duty in a war zone, Swat members, bouncers in rough bars (not the fancy clubs) and ask them what they prefer: training to fight on their feet or training to go to the ground and slap a triangle choke on somebody? It should also give you pause.

      To help start the ball rolling, please read the interview I did with Mark Mireles. He’s LA’s most decorated cop, has tons of real-world experience and is a MMA specialist to boot. If you think he’s doesn’t know what he’s talking about when he says:
      “Ground fighting is important, but is not the absolute system for the reality of street violence. There is a place in real fighting for grappling, but most of it is for worse case scenarios, not a primary systems.” then we’ll just have to agree to disagree. If he’s not a credible source for you, then I don’t know who is. My own experience and that of all my friends from the group of people I summed up above is in accord.

      Respectfully,

      Wim

  6. I disagree with your analogy of this video. I believe it illustrates the necessity of grappling training for real life.

    Neither of these combatants were trained in anything. This is painfully obvious, and extremely relevant. But lets pretend for a second that the guy in the white jacket was in two following scenarios. Both will be trained in either striking or grappling only. Keep in mind most BJJ guys and all MMA fighters cross train to an equal amount in both standup and grappling styles these days.

    Scenario 1: Guy in the black jacket(BJ) is untrained but the gentleman in the white jacket(WJ) is trained in only a striking art(Karate, Boxing, Wing Chun, etc…). The fight starts and WJ starts by beating on BJ in pristine striking fashion, but is unable to avoid the clinch due to the tight space. WJ is also unable to put BJ down with strikes. Now they’re in a clinching match and they go over the railing, get back up and continue wrestling. BJ takes down WJ just like in the video because WJ being primarily a striker doesn’t consistently train clinching and takedown defense. Now they are both on the ground as shown in the video, and evenly matched since neither actively trains ground fighting significantly. BJ is still able to restrain WJ, and BJ’s friend is still able to kick him in the head 15 times. Why? Because even though WJ is an student of striking he was ill prepared to be on the ground. In ignoring this stage of combat, he essentially wrote his own death sentence. Just because he didn’t address ground combat, didn’t mean he would never wind up there.

    Scenario 2: Guy in the black jacket(BJ) is untrained, but this time the gentleman in the white jacket(WJ) is trained in only a grappling art(Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Judo, Wrestling, etc…). Fight starts off as we see in the video as neither has trained striking skills to speak off. They clinch and fall over the railing still, as that would catch even the best strikers or grapplers. However they get back up as in the video and stay in the clinch. Now BJ attempts his weak takedown attempt and WJ, seeing BJ’s friend, is able to keep BJ’s takedown from being successful. Due to the takedown defense he regularly practices in his grappling art.

    For arguments sake though lets say the fight still goes to the ground. Maybe WJ didn’t see BJ’s freind and took him down, maybe he got taken down and decided to stay there. We could even say they didn’t get up after they tripped over the rail, as this is a major danger in any street fight, and can happen to the best fighter on the planet. Now WJ sees BJ’s friend coming, and knows the ground is a terrible place to be when confronted by more than 1 person. Since he trains grappling however he is able to use his superior ground skills to reverse BJ and get back to his feet to escape. Because he knew how to fight on the ground he was able to keep from getting pinned under BJ and escape. Something neither the real WJ nor WJ striker in scenario 1 was unable to do.

    Remember you can ignore something as hard as you want. But that doesn’t mean you won’t come face to face with it one day. If you don’t actively train grappling, you run a risk of being taken to the ground and pinned there. Your striking skills wont help you on the ground if you lack ground experience. Essentially you become just as inexperienced as the guy who took you there, and his friends can still kick the snot out of you. Only now your inexperience makes you helpless to get back to your feet and escape.

    Its like a grappler saying he didn’t need to worry about getting punched because he doesn’t train striking.

    • Anon,

      You’re making things a wee bit too easy by hand picking your scenarios. There are an endless amount of of different scenarios we can extrapolate from this video. You pick two that suit your bias but that doesn’t make them valid in this discussion. Nor does it disqualify all other possibilities, including the ones where an MMA trained fighter gets stomped by the second guy, gets his eyes gouged out, a knife stuck in his kidneys, etc ad nauseam. I know of many real life situations where exactly this happened, and worse.
      These are realities of fighting in a real life conflict, outside of the sports arena. In your words: ignore them if you will but it won’t make them go away. Training for a UFC match doesn’t really prepare you for that, regardless of how hard the training is.

      Also, your assumptions are faulty:
      Just because somebody doesn’t study MMA, doesn’t mean they don’t study ground fighting or grappling. Grappling arts like Western wrestling or Shuai Jiao are thousands of years old. So it’s safe to assume men have fought in the clinch or on the ground for a long, long time. MMA clearly admits to taking from such arts and adapts the techniques for the cage. That’s perfectly fine. But it doesn’t invalidate those arts at all.
      Nor does it mean that practitioners of these (and many,many other) arts don’t train to defend against being taken down or learn how to fight on the ground. Or that their techniques and strategies are somehow inferior to MMA’s.

      MMA is first and foremost a sport. However rough a sport it may be. That means that many things that are crucial on the street are of no consequence in the octagon. As a result, they aren’t trained. Again, differences and similarities… That said, an MMA trained athlete who learns all the UFC prohibited techniques and has a street-savvy mind set will be hell on wheels to fight. But he would not be welcome in the UFC anymore. And he’d also look a lot more like what many non-MMA arts are doing.

      Just two more things:
      http://www.military.com/news/article/army-news/the-top-ten-basic-training-changes.html?ESRC=army-a.nl
      Please read #3. The Army is tossing out the Gracie JJ curriculum. This should give you pause…
      – Please talk to big city cops, soldiers on active duty in a war zone, Swat members, bouncers in rough bars (not the fancy clubs) and ask them what they prefer: training to fight on their feet or training to go to the ground and slap a triangle choke on somebody? It should also give you pause.

      To help start the ball rolling, please read the interview I did with Mark Mireles. He’s LA’s most decorated cop, has tons of real-world experience and is a MMA specialist to boot. If you think he’s doesn’t know what he’s talking about when he says:
      “Ground fighting is important, but is not the absolute system for the reality of street violence. There is a place in real fighting for grappling, but most of it is for worse case scenarios, not a primary systems.” then we’ll just have to agree to disagree. If he’s not a credible source for you, then I don’t know who is. My own experience and that of all my friends from the group of people I summed up above is in accord.

      Respectfully,

      Wim

  7. -Something neither the real WJ nor WJ striker in scenario 1 was unable to do-

    Edit:Something neither the real WJ nor WJ striker in scenario 1 was ABLE to do

  8. -Something neither the real WJ nor WJ striker in scenario 1 was unable to do-

    Edit:Something neither the real WJ nor WJ striker in scenario 1 was ABLE to do

Speak Your Mind

*